Posts by drew sagan

47

How do you answer "you research just to criticize"?

by undercover in

jw
friends

minimus' thread about research got me to thinking about a friend who recently accused me of researching just to purposely find something wrong so i could justify my actions (of becoming inactive).. how would you answer this?.

drew sagan

I remember thinking one time a great way to approach this subject would be to simply lay out a scenario that a JW would love, but at the same time feel somewhat uneasy about.

You're out in field service and a person you meet at the door believes every word you say. He never questions you, and trusts every single thing you teach him. He never checks or verifies anything you say, but rather takes your word for it. It is on this basis that he wants to be a follower of your religion.

Now sure the JW gets a convert, but did the person do any thinking on the matter? Is their ideal potential member a person like this? Somebody who just takes everything they say and pose no challenges? What does that say about a religion if the kind of converts they hope to meet just agree with everything they say without question?

The main point being that JWs in search of naive people, not individuals who are guarded against being decieved. As much as they want to deny it, their entire religion depends upon people NOT getting involved in thinking heavliy about beliefs. All those studies and meetings keep peoples minds at the margins. They are not complex and detailed oriented. They are distractions. What the WT really wants are naive (and idealistic) people.

15

March 15,2009 Watchtower pdf

by bronzefist in

http://www.filefactory.com/file/af192fb/n/march_15_2009_watchtower_pdf.

brzfst.

drew sagan

hmmm, seems to be down. To many people downloading possibly?

47

How do you answer "you research just to criticize"?

by undercover in

jw
friends

minimus' thread about research got me to thinking about a friend who recently accused me of researching just to purposely find something wrong so i could justify my actions (of becoming inactive).. how would you answer this?.

drew sagan

The main goal of asking you this question is so that a label can be placed upon you. The actual substance of what you are doing is immaterial, they just want to know if you are a possible "enemy" of the Watchotwer.

Remember that one of the Watchtowers biggest tools is getting people to believe information with little evidence. Understanding this is critical! Most everybody in positions of authority believe what the WTS teaches without much verification. This attitude is rewarded and encouraged. Seeing somebody demand more than what the Watchtower provides is seen as a signal that you have a problem with the status quo. To them it shows that the person is not "trusting" the Watchtower at its word.

JW's typically don't believe what the WTS teaches because they come to a logical conclusion, they do so because they have been "encouraged" to believe it on little evidence. This is the entire process of a "in home bible study"! Get people to trust you so that eventually they quit challenging what you say and just accept it.

I would say that how you answer this question depends upon context. I would simply answer "no" if I was an active JW trying to fade. OTOH if the situation was different I may be inclined to simply ask basic questions back at the JW and get them to define what they mean further. How much information is to much. The main goal would be to get the JW to recognize (or at least acknowledge) that his main point is that you should trust the magazines without research.

JWs have many indirect questions that, if stated directly, would simply reveal to much about their motivations. Typically most JWs don't actually even grasp the deeper implications of the questions and accusations they throw at people because usually they are just repeating what a magazine or book told them to say in a certain situation. The main point the question this thread referances is that it is well understood by JWs that they should trust what the Watchtower writes without needing additional research. It is not your place as a JW publisher to do research beyond the publications. IF you are doing research, that means you were not convinced by the original information presented, which means you are not trusting the WTS enough.

ONE IDEA:

"Well, haven't you ever wanted to look into this subject a bit deeper yourself? Wouldn't you think it would be interesting to find out....."

in the second example, the person is forced to either say that they would enjoy doing what you are doing, or forced to admit that they would not want to know about their own beliefs in more detail!

One of my rules in dealing with people is to always find a way to turn the conversation around. Don't make people get defensive (that's trouble!), but at the very least try get away from confrontation to some place where you cannot possibly disagree.

32

How Many Here Have Done Extensive Research While a JW or When Exiting?

by minimus in

jw
friends

i loved research.

i used to pride myself in my knowledge of different watchtower society info, especially organization procedure.

so i always enjoyed digging into facts.

drew sagan

Many that leave go through a peroid where they become obsessed with reading and researching. I know I was one of those people. I bought many books during my exit. Eventually I calmed down :)

224

News from Bethel Heavy

by cinnamon1642 in

jw
friends

pioneer hour change is legit.

letters are being mailed out soon to all congregations for announcement in early october right before the tract campaign starts.. .

elimination of circuit overseers.

drew sagan

So this post was made 5 months ago. Any updates on what's in the works?

16

finding purpose and meaning in life, a religous ideal

by chellechelle in

jw
friends

what i have found most interesting is that many of us, upon leaving the cult, become depressed and are afraid because we feel as if our lives have no purpose anymore or that we should be doing something meaningful with our lives but are not.

i have become sick of feeling this way and watching otheres feel this way aswell.

this is what i have come to realize.

drew sagan

After being told for years that you need the JWs for your "purpose" in life, the initial time peroid when you leave can feel like a vacuum. It's a phase you just have to work past. If you move on an choose another faith to believe in, it's not going to be because you "have" to but because you have the freedom to choose if you so desire. Learning that you have personal freedom (and responsiblity) can be a tough adjustment when coming out of a group that makes you so busy and convinces you that all that activity is the only thing you should be doing with your life. The goal should never to replace those things if you leave (and only a few other stranges religions even can provide that!) but to work past those feelings. It's all part of recovery.

I've known a number of people who when they left the JWs felt the need to try to "solve" the universe within the shortest time frame posslbe. Pretty silly stuff, but when you leave it's quite possible you will get the urge.

21

Singles! Looking for a dub to marry?

by Newborn in

jw
friends

did you know about this site?

i didn't, however i'll keep looking elsewhere, grrrr.

http://www.jwmatch.com.

drew sagan

I like the Japanese schoolgirl they have in the top right hand corner

13

New Mormon website despicting itself as Christian

by mouthy in

http://www.studychristianity.com/.

drew sagan

I don't think this website is an official Mormon website, but rather the creation of a very enthusiastic member.

4

what I got from the JWs....structure

by drew sagan in

jw
friends

i was inspired to post this because of another post my minimus.. many have wondered how a 15 year old kid gets interested and hooked into being a jehovah's witness.

i was having a conversation with my wife the other day (mainly talking about my parents) and she made a pretty interested observation that i thought i would share.. the house that i grew up in was highly disorganized.

my parents had little structure.

drew sagan

I was inspired to post this because of another post my minimus.

Many have wondered how a 15 year old kid gets interested and hooked into being a Jehovah's Witness. I was having a conversation with my wife the other day (mainly talking about my parents) and she made a pretty interested observation that I thought I would share.

The house that I grew up in was highly disorganized. My parents had little structure. There were not commands to "brush your teeth" before you go to bed or "do your homework". They would suggest that we should do those kinds things from time to time, but never with any passion. They instead usually seemed pretty absorbed in their own day to day problems. My wife seemed shocked when I told her that I many times didn't have a lunch or lunch money because no one had planned on either getting us lunch money or lunches. Last minute dad would check his wallet to see if he anything to give and sometimes he would complain. He was always complaining, life was just "to hard". Blah blah blah

Anyway, it was in this atmosphere that I got connected with the JWs. Not only was I young, naive, and idealistic, I also had a yearning for some sort of structure. It was actually this structure (and seeing people who lived structured lives, or so i thought) that I believe really attracted me to the Kingdom Hall.

This was my wifes observation. She remarked that both me and my brother enetered into highly structured lifestyles during our early adult lives. I went into the Jehovah's Witnesses and he went into the United States Marine Corps.

I have to say that from time to time by desire for a "structured" life still comes back to me. It has absolutly nothing to do with belief (although when I was JW I did believe what I was taught). It's not about theology or "truth", but rather it was an attraction to the structured lifestyle that the JWs live by. Other groups that function in such a way are equally attractive in their own way to me. Of course, all of this is a rather weak desire these days, a passing interest that goes away rather quickly. But back when I was a naive teenager I really do believe that the structured lifestyle of the JWs was a major reason that I was attracted to the group.

76

I think this camel's back is broken (the final straw)

by JimmyPage in

jw
friends

i got home from work last night and guess what happened while i was gone?.

my wife tells me she called the presiding overseer to set up a time for all of us to talk about our premarital no-no's.. "really?

" i asked her.

drew sagan

JP,

My only suggestion is that you hold onto that DA until the very last possible moment. I have spoken with many people who have gotten overly excited when they are in a situation like yours, only to realize that after some time has passed they can move along without problem and DA. I'm not saying it will work out that way, but just realize that DA is something you can't just take back. It's out there for good, so use it wisely.

As another one of my posts mentioned in regards to your situation, I think you need to have a one way conversation with her. A conversation where everything is coming from her. Her feelings, her questions, everything. Don't put her on the spot, don't make her defend anything, nothing like that at all. Just try to get her to talk about what she wants and what she feels for as long as possible. Sometimes I've noticed that when people are leaving the JWs they tend not to listen to the other person and simply want to railroad all over them about problems, doctrines, ect. You can't make a person care about the Watchtowers problems, they have to actually feel it matters and that comes from a change within themselves.

You can't make a person change their mind, but you can help them in the process of changing their own mind. Your wife is a scared JW, what else is she going to do! Just say you are correct in your criticsm and leave in a week? How long did it take you? Keep all of this in mind, it's a tough situation.